Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I’m Krishnan Guru-Murthy and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas and their lives and the events that have helped shape them. My guest this week is Morgan McMonagle, an Irish vascular trauma surgeon who’s recently returned from Gaza, where he worked in hospitals under bombardment. What he witnessed there goes beyond medicine, raising questions about humanity, morality, and the toll war takes on everyone involved. Morgan’s also been involved in dealing with the aftermath of major incidents, including the Westminster Bridge attack and the Grenfell Tower disaster. Welcome. Thank you for coming.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Thank you for having me.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: If you could change the world, how would you change it?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Oh, tough question. Um, I think equity. I think to create a world that everybody was equal in, regardless of race, religion, nationality, background, but also economic equity. I’m a firm believer that the root of all prejudice and racism is really economic prejudice and economic racism.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What did equity feel like in Gaza when you were there?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Well, it felt non-existent. Um, I mean, I can fully see that I come from an elite part of the world. I’m a white Caucasian male. That gives a certain birth elitism. And going into Gaza, seeing the world from the other side, from inside out, was very eye opening. We have a population of people in a land roughly the size of Manhattan with the density of roughly London that can’t leave without permission. There’s no airport that’s functioning. They are surrounded by another state that controls what they do, what they eat, what they drink, where they go. And yet, and yet they are, certainly before the war they were thriving. So there’s a mismatch in the, it’s disproportionate, the mismatch in how the Palestinian people have been treated for a long time and are continuing to be treated compared to the rest of the world.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think this, you’ve been to Gaza twice?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: In this conflict?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Do you think this time you were there when you came under bombardment, we spoke to you on the news, um, did it politicize you a bit more?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes. And that’s always a concern when you’re a healthcare worker or a humanitarian worker and you go in because the four pillars are independence, humanity, impartiality, and neutrality. And regardless of who you are or where you are, you’re there to provide humanitarian assistance to relieve the suffering of the population. Regardless of your own, and everyone has prejudices, but regardless of that, you try to set them aside and you should set them aside. The problem is people like you, journalists, are the experts at bringing back evidence from any conflict zone around the world and they’re not allowed in. So I felt when I left that there was an element of, well, I’m not going to advocate for right or wrong, but what I can advocate for is the truth. And that’s what I feel is the responsibility of a lot of healthcare workers and I’m not the only one that we do feel the need to speak up and say…

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And we put you in that position I suppose because we’re not there. We’ve relied a lot on healthcare workers to try and give us an impartial view of the realities.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: But not just that, but if you look at any human rights situation, the right to free speech is always held very high in human rights and in civil rights in this country as well. And journalism always gets a very special corner of the right to free speech. Yet that’s being denied. And therefore, you are denying an entire population of people the right to say what’s going on. And all you can do is report the facts. All you can do is report what you see. As regards blame, that’s something that should be left to the courts in any situation. But certainly, as regards evidence, I can certainly speak for the truth as to what I saw and to what I was told.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: When you got there and started living there, did you feel that you hadn’t heard the truth? You know, did you get there and go, gosh, people don’t actually know what’s going on here?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: I had been there in 2024 and I was in a field hospital in Rafah, and that was before the Israeli forces had occupied southern Gaza. So, we were a little bit remote, although the Israeli forces were very close to the field hospital we were in. When I went back, I couldn’t believe the amount of destruction that had happened. Really. And even though I have video and photographic evidence, it doesn’t do justice to what the human eye can see and take in. Now, there was a ceasefire on when I went in in February. Um, so some supplies had come in, some medical supplies, some food, and some water had come in, and things seemed to be changing slowly. The Palestinian population were getting on with things. They were on their third wave of polio and measles vaccination at that stage. So, they were very industrious type of people. We took a drive from Khan Yunis up to Gaza City and I really, I really can’t emphasize just how destroyed everything was with the exception of the main roads. Some Palestinians had said to me at the time that they’re not allowed, despite being allowed to bring in medical supplies and clothes and food, they weren’t allowed to bring in anything to fix things, to fix electricity, to fix the roads, to fix street lighting. So there was a certain foreboding that was still there that the conflict was going to restart again as a result.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And what does it make you feel about humanity when you see destruction on that scale as a humanitarian?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: It makes me feel angry that we, the western world, are standing by and allowing it to happen. I think Europe, not just the European Union, but Europe and Britain, I think we’ve let ourselves down. I mean, you have to remember that many of the sort of charters and laws and agreements that we’ve reached since World War II were based on the mantra that we’ll never allow this to happen again. But we are allowing to happen again. And even recently the High Court in Britain said it was, they didn’t find any fault, that it was perfectly lawful to send components for weaponry to be used in Gaza. Now they are paying deference to parliamentary superiority to a certain degree and I’m certainly in no position to call out a learned judge on the right or wrong of that law. But what I would ask the listeners is, is it moral or is this law, any law – is it a law at all, if it’s not moral? So if you look at the morality of what these components have been used for in the Middle East, it’s certainly not moral. You know, one of the greatest things to come out of this country, not just the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen, David Bowie, one of the greatest things is actually the common law, because the common law is based on reasonability and proportionality. So, I would love to stand up in Westminster and ask people, do you think it’s reasonable and proportionate what is happening regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong? Park that.
Just look at the responsibility. Is it proportionate? Is it reasonable? And is it moral? And if the answer to those three questions is no, then something has to be done. People have to stop what’s going on in Gaza at the moment, call a ceasefire, and then sort out the right and wrong after.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And when you come back and life is getting on as normal, and people are wandering into cafes and drinking coffee and going on holiday and buying, you know, suntan cream., what, how do you react to that? You know, how do you deal with that? When you come from such a dystopian place?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah, you can very quickly get on with your life and forget about it. But I did, on this occasion, I felt compelled, along with a lot of my colleagues who were there. We felt compelled that we had to speak up for the truth for what’s going on because things are so bad or so poor. I mean nothing can justify, nothing can justify what’s going on in Gaza right now. So when you see people getting on, I think there’s a certain naivety because life goes on. We have mortgages to pay. We have bills to pay. We’ve kids to drop to school. We’ve relationships to get on with. We’ve work to get on with. So it’s very quickly things can get forgotten about. And Gaza isn’t the only conflict going on around the world. The Rohingya population are still being terrorized. Sudan is being terrorized. The war is still going on in Ukraine, and you can quickly get on with just ordinary life and you can forget very quickly and I think it’s our job as healthcare workers because the media aren’t there to try and keep it alive, to try and keep it alive, in the hope and, and I am losing a certain amount of hope that Europe will do something about it. I don’t think America is and they should because again going back to that birthright elitism that we have in the west, we have a responsibility. We’re the ones who made the agreements. We’re the ones who made the Rome Statute, the Geneva Conventions, the European Convention on Human Rights. We made, we are the ones who made them to agree to and yet we’re not really in a meaningful way ensuring that they are being upheld around the world.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Why do you do this? well maybe we should start with why are you a vascular trauma surgeon? I mean, that is literally the blood and guts work of dramatic medicine.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes. So I trained as a vascular surgeon in the West Midlands here in the UK and then in Australia, and then I went to America and did a trauma fellowship in Philadelphia. And I think it takes a certain amount of grit, a certain style to your personality that you want to work in a situation where you have to make big bold decisions very rapidly to get, you know, a good outcome. And I had worked in Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham in I think it was 2008, 2009 at the height of the number of British young British soldiers coming back injured from the Afghan, Iraqi war that had happened at that time, and I do remember thinking that A., it’s not right. Um, these young men and women were coming back with the most horrific injuries that were life-changing. They’re absolutely life-changing. And I was certainly very supportive of them even though I was not necessarily supportive of the war and the conflict. You can support the warriors without supporting the war. and I think from there it just lit a spark. when I went to St. Mary’s Hospital and met one of my mentors, David Nott, who’s been a huge influence on doing this style of work. For me, I do get a great sense of satisfaction being involved in something bigger than myself, and that goes back to maybe the original question of equity, that maybe if all of us looked at doing something that was bigger than ourselves, the world might be a better place.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, I suppose if I was your dad I might say, yes, but son, you know, every life is the same. You can save a life, you know, run over by a car.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: In Waterford.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And it has the same value as the life you’re saving in Gaza.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But you’ve chosen to go to dangerous places.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yes.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And we do both, you know, whether it’s a life in London or life in Ireland or life in Gaza. So yeah, I have chosen to put myself in a situation that brings me a certain level of satisfaction because everybody wants to do a good job no matter what. but the devastate, I mean the injuries I was seeing in Gaza amongst children and women were as horrific if not more horrific than the injuries I was seeing in the young soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq in Selly Oak hospital. So I think it’s important, I think it’s really important that the world realizes that. because you can very easily forget. You can call it propaganda if you wish. and it goes back again to what I said, is a law any law at all if it’s not a moral law, because don’t forget every single law that was passed by the Third Reich in late 1930s Germany was lawful. Everything was lawful because the executive needed to ratchet the courts within their own goals and aims. They needed to justify and make lawful anything they did to the Jewish population and more in central Europe in the 1930s. It was lawful. We need to stand up for that. Going back to again what I said about the common law. What would a reasonable person think? Would a reasonable person believe that it’s okay to have to open a four-year-old child’s abdomen and chest at the same time to stop bleeding and they die? Wave after wave of children coming in mostly dead, cold and dead. Um, some in parts, some intact. The gender-based violence, the dehumanization, the debasement, the no running water, no street lights, the no food, the horrific infections, the children waking up paralyzed down one side of their body from shrapnel, children waking up and crying for their mothers labeled, uh, you know, wounded child, no surviving family, you know, WCNSF, wounded child no surviving family, no parent, crying for their mothers and they’re now an orphan as well on top of everything else. If a reasonable person can stand back and say this is immoral, this is unlawful, this needs to be stopped, you don’t need to be a legal mind to do it, you don’t need to be a humanitarian, you just need to be a reasonable person, the man or woman on the Clapham omnibus.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: People always wonder how medics in that situation, the, you know, the Palestinian medics as well as the visiting medics, you know, don’t collapse from PTSD or just go mad from what they’re dealing with. I mean, how do you explain that? Is it that you are basically so busy doing what you’re doing, doing your job?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah. So, you’re in survival mode. And so, the night that Nasser Hospital was targeted, I was there. I was on the fourth floor. I was in the intensive care unit and the entire building shook. I looked out the window and saw there was fire on the second floor. So, the first thing I did was I went into survival mode, check where the fire escapes were, make sure my the friends and colleagues I was with were okay. The Palestinians couldn’t have been nicer. They were more concerned for us than anything else. That gave me a glimpse into the life of a regular everyday Palestinian for the last 20 months, 21 months. They’ve been living in that same survival mode every single day since then. I don’t recall being scared. I definitely had an element of anticipatory anxiety, but I was in survival mode. I was focused. Situational awareness is probably the best way to put it, which is something that you do in surgery, especially vascular surgery and trauma surgery, because disease is very unpredictable. Things can go wrong very quickly. So, you need to maintain situational awareness. So, that’s probably the best way to describe what I was in. People do react differently afterwards. It’s only afterwards when you come out of a force majeure that you, and we were warned that by some of our clinical psychologists who were part of our team, said to us that when there’s a ceasefire and remember we went in while the ceasefire was still holding, a lot of the Palestinians will now start to suffer mental health issues because they look back and think how much their lives have changed, how much they’ve lost, how much destruction, how much they have to do. But while the war is going on, everyone’s in survival mode, looking for food, looking to protect their children, looking to get on with everyday life, shelter. I think when healthcare workers come out of a healthcare zone, or a conflict zone like that, they do react in different ways. I know some people have been very upset and they want to go back. Um, I think my go-to has been a combination of anger and guilt. I felt quite angry that we are allowing it to happen. And I say we, you know, I’m part of the western world as well. And a lot of guilt that I was leaving a lot of very good colleagues behind. I was leaving human beings behind. I mean, human rights are based on one premise, one premise only. The fact that we are human. That is it. That is it. And everything else stems from that. And they too are also human beings. And the driver we had who brought us out on the last day when we were exiting into Israel from Gaza, his last words to me were, and it was kind of tongue in cheek but kind of not. And he had a diplomatic passport but wasn’t allowed to leave. He worked for the UN. He was Palestinian. And his last words to me were, “Anyone left in Gaza now is either dead or will be dead very soon.” Very chilling words.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How are you able to think about the humanity of the people who are sending the bombs over, the Israelis?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Well, Europe is also supplying arms. North America is supplying arms. So, I think we have a shared responsibility. I don’t think it’s not just Israel, although they may be launching them, but we’re supporting it. I don’t know. I’m not a security expert, but I don’t believe they could do it without the support of the West, of Europe, and North America, not just to supply them with the equipment to do it, but also with the political permission slip. So, I think we all have a certain element of responsibility there. And there’s a lot of people making a lot of money off the arms trade.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I suppose what I mean is, um, as somebody who deals with the situation when a life is lost, do you think the people who take the decisions to take a life potentially or support it.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Um, as part of their national identity.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Understand what it is that is happening.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Oh, they know. Oh, for sure they know. I mean, it’s not an even fight. It’s not a war. It’s a conflict. So you’ve got a population essentially of civilians and you might say there are terrorists amongst the civilians versus what is considered a sovereign state that is a nuclear state that is the most sophisticated army in the world next to maybe North America and the USA. they know what they’re doing and they know the destruction that those bombs can do and are doing. Absolutely. I do also believe that when you get into a situation like that, that both sides become dehumanized. There’s no doubt whatsoever that the aggressors have dehumanized the Palestinian population. And that’s what happens. It’s kind of natural. If you look at any genocide that has happened like Rwanda or the genocide of World War II or happened in the former Yugoslavia, you dehumanize. You don’t look at the population as humans anymore, but you also to a certain degree dehumanize yourself to be able to do it, to be able to go in there and kill people and not care, and almost get a thrill out of it, because like I said, everybody comes to work to do a good job, and the good job there is to kill the enemy. Um, and again, that goes back to what I said about equity. If the whole world was equal, we wouldn’t dehumanize each other. You know, we wouldn’t look at a population as being somewhat subhuman.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And I mean, you mention, um, the Hamas operation in Gaza while you were there. I mean, again, people say, “Well, what’s the truth about this?” You know, when you’re there and you’re being asked by journalists, are there Hamas people in the hospital? And you say no. Is that the truth or is that what you have to say because they are there?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: No. Look, I don’t know. We go in impartial. Nobody comes up to me, up to anybody and says, “Hi, I’m a commander in this terrorist organization.” I mean, that’s the whole idea of being part of an organization. It’s all a bit, you know, subverted and it’s all underhanded and covert. So, I don’t know. But that still doesn’t justify targeting healthcare workers and a population of civilians. Nothing justifies that.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: That’s a slightly different question. What I suppose I’m getting at is did you also find yourself blaming and being angry with the Hamas pillars within Gaza? Um, that you know to some degree are part of what’s going on.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: To a certain degree. Um, again the proportion of how much they’re now responsibl, should come out in the evidence. Evidence can only be gathered if people are allowed in who are expert at gathering evidence, whether it’s United Nations or journalists. So, I don’t know. It’s not really my role to gather that level of evidence. All I can say is the injuries I saw were caused by the Israeli forces. The blame is something that needs to be done by a much at a much higher level. In this country, it would be the judiciary.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yeah.
Dr. Morgan McMonagle: I guess in an international conflict, it should be the International Criminal Court. But of course, compliance with the International Criminal Court means you have to agree to it. And the two most powerful, the three most powerful nations in the world right now are not signed up to it. So, there’s no compliance. So, it gives people almost a carte blanche with impunity. But when it comes to terrorism, I mean, there’s no actual definition of terrorism. I mean, probably I think it’s the United Nations and I could be wrong in this, uh, General Assembly resolution, I think it’s 49/60. It talks about if you intentionally or calculatedly create a state of terror amongst a population or a group within a population for whatever reason, religion, national, idealistic, ethnic, whatever your reason is. I’d ask you which side is causing terror right now.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: How many foreign doctors would have been in Gaza when you were there?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Oh god. In Gaza in total, I don’t know. In my group in Nasser Hospital at that time there was probably about 16 of us at that time from a combination of USA, UK and Jordan. they were mostly from Islamic backgrounds, uh, who obviously felt a need and a calling to go back to Gaza and that’s understandable. There weren’t so many non-Islamic people like myself there. Um, but I think if word got out properly showing the destruction that’s going on, I think people would be morally obliged to sign up and go to Gaza. I mean, I saw a lot more people in Ukraine when I was there from the NHS and North America. And I can’t really understand why. And I’m a great believer in supporting Ukraine. I’ve been there and uh, I’m involved in training Ukrainian surgeons in war surgery, but it’s very disproportionate the West’s response to Ukraine than it is to Gaza. And I think, I feel, my own just purely my opinion, there’s an element of prejudice. And then maybe that again goes back to your original question. If there was more equity in the world, then we wouldn’t be seeing this disproportionate response.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Prejudice against Muslims or Arabs or all of the above?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: I think prejudice, I mean it depends what you mean by prejudice. Prejudice against anybody who doesn’t look like us, who doesn’t behave like us, who doesn’t believe in the same beliefs. The whole idea of equity is that you can live your life and I can live mine within reason. Of course. you can’t just do whatever you want. I think it’s very, very unfortunate that if you speak out for the truth and you speak out for humanity against what’s going on in Gaza, you can very quickly get tarnished with the stain of being an anti-semite. And that stain appears to be indelible. I mean, my own country, Ireland, is already being labeled as an anti-semitic country, which is absolutely not true. If you go back and look at the facts and our history, it is absolutely not true. We used to have in our constitution, used to be one of the articles in our constitution that specifically made reference to the Jewish congregation in Ireland. Just as an aside, as an example, but yet we see it’s very easy to name call.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Are you being accused of anti-semitism having spoken out?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Not directly. I haven’t received a huge amount of backlash, I must say. I’ve looked on social media and in general if somebody says they must stop what they’re doing at the moment, call a ceasefire, immediately somebody is labeled an anti-semite or a supporter of Hamas. I mean, it’s a supporter of humanity. It’s a supporter of human rights, which is a completely separate subject than the issue of blame. It’s about truth.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And so what do you think is going on there in terms of the labeling of people as anti-semitic if they speak out?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: I think it’s disingenuous. I think it’s lazy. It’s easy. I think it’s part of us. Nobody likes to admit they’re wrong. Nobody likes to face certain truths about themselves. And if you believe, if you have, if you carry a certain belief and somebody shows you evidence to the contrary, it is difficult as human beings for us to turn around and say, “Yes, you’re right. I am wrong.” So, it’s easier. I think it’s easier, not to mention lazy, just to say, “Well, you must be an anti-semite.” You know, I think that’s what, I think it’s human nature. I think we like to protect our own prejudice because it’s something that’s formed part of our characters for a long, long time. Not since birth, usually since becoming adults.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And how different is the situation for you in Ukraine then? Does it throw up the same moral questions?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Um, well, as regards, human behavior, you know, I suppose human behavior. Well first of all, it is a different situation in that Ukraine-Russia is a war. It’s two sovereign states. Both have armies and both have arms and both, the actual playing field, the pitch is a lot more level. The infrastructure is still standing in Ukraine. There’s still roads, there’s still street lighting, there’s still food, there’s still hospitals, still healthcare. That is not the situation in Gaza. So, I do think there is a huge moral difference in what’s going on in Ukraine than what’s going on in Gaza because there seems to be a purpose to wipe out the civilian population in Gaza. This is just from what I can see that people who are in humanitarian protected deconflicted zones are still being bombed, are still being shot by quadcopters. They’re being starved out. We’re seeing the effects of starvation. Things I read about in books in medical school that only existed in sub-Saharan Africa in the 70s and 80s are now being seen in Gaza. So it is not the same situation.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What would you say then to people who are considering careers in medicine? I mean, are you a particular type or is this within all doctors?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: No, there are so many branches of medicine and there’s, you know, all personalities can do medicine. I mean, even if you’re interested in humanitarian medicine, you don’t have to go to a conflict zone. I mean, if you look at the big five killers in sub-Saharan Africa, it’s hunger, dirty water, and sanitation, tuberculosis, measles, and malaria. You don’t need to be a conflict surgeon to manage those. Um, and HIV of course is a big one now as well. But the western world again is cutting back on funding for those. Again, our own moral high horse that we have created, that we’ve described, our own sanctimonious high horse that we’ve created, we’re not living by. So I would say anybody wants to do medicine, do it. There’s a certain hunger for people who want to do medicine that won’t go away if you don’t do it. And as you progress through your career if you have a draw to humanitarianism, um, then I would say there’s a huge amount of self-satisfaction in there. You don’t have to go to a conflict zone but if you do, go with an NGO group that’s responsible. I certainly felt very supported by the NGO group I was with, notwithstanding the fact that you’re still relying on human error and that you are taking a certain risk by going in, especially in the current conflict because the classic standards of humanitarianism that you do not target healthcare facilities are not being adhered to. They’re not being adhered to in Ukraine either. But Gaza is a very small zone in comparison.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: In your sort of quiet moments now that time has passed. I mean in interviews you will talk about the four-year-old child who you open up and who dies.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I presume that’s a very traumatic thing to witness.
And when you’re involved in it, when you’re there touching this child, um, trying to save him or her. Um, how does that kind of thing, sit with you with time? You know, does it haunt you?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Does it haunt me? Um, it doesn’t go away. Uh, I think every healthcare, every doctor and nurse has their own sort of internal quiet place of contemplation, and I’ve had patients over the years I’ve often thought about in my regular work. Uh, that doesn’t go away and that’s okay. That’s to be expected. I guess the level of destruction and inhumanity and inhuman suffering I saw in Gaza was on a different scale and the sort of supports you have are always with people who’ve shared the same experience. It’s the same as groups that are designed for maybe, you know, people who’ve had a history of drug abuse or alcohol abuse or violence or have had a force majeure. You get a huge amount of shared experience support because your loved ones, your family, your friends, partners, they’ll never really understand on a visceral level what you saw or went through. So that’s the first thing I’d say. It does help doing things like this. It helps speaking out about it. Just like people who’ve gone through a force majeure, for example, maybe alcohol abuse in the past, they often go on to careers to help other people from their experience. So, I think speaking out, I honestly when I went to Gaza last year, I did not think I’d still be sitting here speaking about it over a year later. I thought the whole thing would be done and dusted and there would be a peace process of some sort. And that doesn’t seem to be on the horizon of ending. The war seems to be getting worse. Unfortunately, the worst is now in the hands of three white Caucasian men. We don’t seem to want meaningful peace, you know, meaningful peace like where your actions reflect your words and that’s a great fear right now. That’s a great fear for all of us, for all of us, Europe as well.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So will you go back?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: I would go back. Yes. I don’t know if I’ll get back, because I’ve spoken out. You know, the fact that journalists can’t get in, healthcare workers are now been put in a situation to advocate for what’s going on.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: So, you need to be approved, do you, by Israel before you can go into Gaza?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah. And they, it’s controlled very tightly and we don’t get a reason. If you’re refused, you’re not given a reason why. Uh, so we don’t know what the, if there was any principles or policy attached to it. Uh, it could just be random. I don’t know. But yes, I would go back. Um, I think there’s a greater need now than ever for Gaza. If you were to ask them what they need tonight other than a ceasefire, they need food and clean water. They don’t even need healthcare right now. You know, yes, they need healthcare, but right now tonight, they need food. They’re being starved out of it. And again, it’s the cynic in me. It’s not even the cynic in me, but while I was there, I should point out that they were on their third round of measles and polio vaccination and yet they couldn’t get other equipment in. Why were they allowed to have those vaccinations? Well, we know from COVID that infectious diseases does not respect international barriers. So the cynic in me would say, well, we don’t want polio and measles spilling into Israel, so we better have a vaccination campaign. But meanwhile, children were dying of hypothermia because that won’t contaminate internationally. Children are dying of lack of food. We were seeing mothers – because it’s still a very high birth rate in Gaza and Palestine in general – We’re seeing babies, uh, born early, a lot of premature babies and babies small for dates. Classic signposts of malnutrition and stress, the stress of war. I’ll also point out as well and this can be fact checked that before the war if you look at maternal mortality and neonatal mortalities, death of young babies is also considered a fairly good signpost of how well a health care system is doing. The maternal mortality after birth or during birth and the neonatal mortality were better in Palestine compared to the USA before the war.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Well, they have a very highly educated,

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: S very high population, very high literacy rate which is a great reflection on can-don it-ess. So, you know, if there was a ceasefire I have no doubt the Palestinians would manage to rebuild but it’s going to take a long time. One of the things I did notice that driving around last year in the field hospital we had scores and scores and scores of children with amputations. Some both legs gone, some both legs and upper limb gone. Driving around Khan Yunis and then Gaza City, I didn’t see any amputees. So where are they? They’re at home. So the entire society has been turned upside down where the children as they grow up would look after elderly patients, the parents, that’s now turned upside down because the parents are now at home looking after disabled children while the other children who haven’t lost their limbs are the ones going out collecting water and food and doing jobs to try and make, you know, get by. So I think it’s going to take a very, very long time if Gaza survives and my big fear is it won’t.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, we haven’t even had time really to talk about the fact that you were involved in the aftermath of the Westminster Bridge attack and the Grenfell fire and these sort of terrible disasters as I suppose just by virtue of being a specialized trauma surgeon.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Yeah.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: In a high center. Um, but, you know, have you sort of become the Kate Adie of traveling doctors? Do you know, do you attract trouble?

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Um, do I attract trouble? God, I hope not. I suppose if you put yourself out there enough, you’ll, you reap what you sew to a certain degree. Um, I’m, you know, absolutely happy. I don’t want to say proud because pride is something that’s very elite. It’s a very elite word. I would say I’m very happy to be involved in something bigger like, you know, when something like, I’d rather Westminster didn’t happen or Grenfell didn’t happen. um, but it’s good to be a part of something when it does happen, and unfortunately we live in a world where we’re going to continue to see, you know, major conflicts and major disasters with climate change and conflict. And in fact even WHO have put out figures that show that in the last 5 years there’s been a 20% increase in the number of people exposed to war and conflict in the world and that goes back to my original comment that the biggest form of prejudice and racism in the world is actually economic. It’s economic apartheid.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Morgan, thank you very much indeed.

Dr. Morgan McMonagle: Thank you.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: And that’s it for this episode of Ways to Change the World. You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. Until next time, bye-bye.