Main Quote
These two children saw a can of food sitting on the road and they walked up to it and they crouched down on either side. The Israeli soldiers had rigged this can of food with an explosive and when they reached down to pick it up, the can exploded.
Mehdi Hasan:
You went to Gaza in January of 2024. Now you've just returned from a second trip in November. What did you see this time around? Has the “ceasefire” stopped the annihilation?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
I did not see a ceasefire. On the first day when I was there, I talked to one of the local plastic surgeons and I had asked him quite naively. "Have things changed or are things still very difficult in the ceasefire?" And he said to me, he goes, "Irfan, things are not difficult, they're impossible." Although the frequency of attacks has decreased, the attacks have continued regularly. I heard bombs. I heard gunfire. I cared for patients with new shrapnel injuries, new gunshot wounds every day. As a matter of fact, on the last couple days that I was there, November 18th or 19th, the intensity of the attacks actually was increasing. So, the fires, the gunfire was continuing. You know, the one story I'd like to share with you and your listeners is it's important to really keep the Israeli military's brutality in perspective. Actually, the very first patient or patients I was asked to see at the old Shifa hospital were two twins. They were six-year-old brother and sister, Yahia and Nabila. And I was called to see them because of injuries that they had sustained. They were returning back to their homes after the “ceasefire” was called with their families. They were going to explore the rubble, see if there's items that they could salvage. These two children saw a can of food sitting on the road and they walked up to it and they crouched down on either side. The Israeli soldiers had rigged this can of food with an explosive and when they reached down to pick it up, the can exploded. They sustained significant injuries. Nabila, when I saw her, she had a piece of gauze over her abdomen. When I removed it, there was a wound through her abdomen where I could see literally her small intestines. All the flesh on the left side of her body from her buttocks down to her leg was all exposed. She was missing a third of her leg bone. Yahia also had similar injuries. He was missing all the flesh on the right side of his body, his lower extremities. His lower bones, leg bones were all exposed like a skeleton.
Mehdi Hasan:
And what were you able to do for them in that situation?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
When I saw them, they were about ready to amputate both of the legs of both of those children. And that's what I did during the two weeks. They're about six years old and they were fighting. And you know what was especially saddening about this is when I first saw them, I shared some of my Jolly Ranchers that I had with them. And I put it next to them, besides them on the bed. And while the mother was telling me the story, I saw Yahia with his left hand. It looked like he was playing or fumbling with a candy. And it wasn't quite sure what was happening. It took me a few seconds to register what was going on. And then it occurred to me that Yahia's right hand was amputated. And so this child was struggling to try to even unwrap this candy. So, this war is still continuing and the people are still suffering. You know, one of the other local doctors had mentioned to me, he said, you know, we've been bombed into the stone ages. And I think that's also important to keep into perspective where the Palestinian people are. So even if the ceasefire has actually taken place, even if there is a return to “normalcy”, these people are still suffering. They have no electricity. They're living in tents. They don't have access to water. I saw them. They're actually going to vehicles collecting drinking water from these vehicles and they're now getting hit by storms as well.
Mehdi Hasan:
You mentioned being bombed back to the stone age. I'm reminded I think it was Benny Gantz when he was head of the Israeli military, running for office, and bragging that he was one of the people who had bombed Gaza in a previous war, back to the stone age. It's a line the Israelis use proudly. You've been going to Gaza for many years. I believe you went first time in 2009. So, we're what, 16 years later. What does Gaza look like today compared to 2009 when it was being bombed?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Well, when I went in 2009, it was right after the ceasefire was called for Operation Cast Lead. So, there was an attack, clearly not at the level of intensity that we saw here. Now, I'll give you one example that was interesting — when I was there in 2009, I was working at the Shifa Hospital and they had a wing for specialty surgery that was under construction at the time. This time when I came back, the Shifa hospital and that specialty wing were completely blown out and obliterated. You know, to your point, that even before this war, the people of Gaza have been struggling. There's been, as we're all aware, the embargo, the constant attacks, the constant oppression, the squeeze.
Mehdi Hasan:
So, you mentioned the blowing up of parts of the Shifa hospital. Last year you recounted the struggle of operating in a healthcare system that has utterly collapsed, in conditions that would be unthinkable in the US. You described performing amputations using a Civil War era tool, barbed wire essentially. Again, you go back now nearly two years later, what kind of materials do you have now, what kind of equipment is there now? How hard was it to do these surgeries versus January 2024?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Yeah, it's still a considerable struggle. You know, there's still a lack of resources, medical equipment, and even frankly physicians. A lot of physicians left when they had the opportunity to at the beginning of the war. A lot of them have been killed. And a lot of them still are caring for their families, providing water and so forth. So, what I saw was a healthcare system that was still struggling. And I'll give you some personal examples. One example is when we take people back for surgery, we put a breathing tube down their throat to administer anesthesia. They didn't have any extra equipment. So, these breathing tubes that they were using, they would simply take out of one patient, rinse it in water that's not even drinkable or sterile water, and then reuse it again in the next patient. There is no, or was no, sterile equipment. I was caring for patients in the emergency room, suturing them up. They didn't have what's called needle drivers, forceps, even scissors to cut the suture. So, it's still a considerable struggle.
Mehdi Hasan:
So, this supposed ceasefire was supposed to see a surge of aid — that was the phrase that western politicians used. That was what was going to happen once the fighting stopped. That hasn't happened. The UN reported over a hundred rejected aid requests in the first month after the ceasefire for blankets, winter clothes, sanitation supplies. What about medical supplies? Are they getting it? I remember talking to you and other doctors who've been into Gaza since October 2023 and they told me many times that things were being stopped, you weren't allowed to take things in your suitcase. Did that happen this time?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Absolutely. Yeah. There are restrictions. Even though some doctors are allowed entry, we're only allowed to take personal items. So, we're essentially handcuffed, right? We're allowed to go into Gaza, but we don't have the equipment to actually perform the surgeries and to help the patients as we need to. For example, in some hospitals, the orthopedic surgeons were saying they didn't have the tools to basically fix bones. A lot of the places they didn't have X-ray machines to be able to image them.
Mehdi Hasan:
I remember Dr. Mark Perlmutter telling me about having to leave a drill bit inside a child's arm. Just horrific. In terms of the actual healthcare system, Israel still imprisons over 80 doctors and nurses from Gaza. They've killed hundreds of healthcare workers over the last two years. What is life like for the healthcare workers you met who are still working there, surviving there, bravely trying to help their people?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Yeah, you know, this was a very unique opportunity for me this time because I was there for almost three weeks and I actually had an opportunity to live amongst Palestinian people. I ate food with them. I took walks with them. I met and spoke to local vendors. And so, I really got to know them. I'll give you the story of one of the plastic surgeons who I worked with very closely. He had to walk 50 minutes every day to the hospital. He said there's no roads. There's still rubble blocking them. There's no transportation really readily available for him. When he goes home, I saw him one day carrying cardboard boxes and plastic bottles back. He said, "I need this to help fuel the fire for our home to keep our tent warm." So, the doctors there are very exhausted. They've been struggling without the adequate support that they need in terms of medical equipment and medical support and they're really pushed to the edge and they themselves are suffering from what every other Palestinian is suffering from.
Mehdi Hasan:
The malnutrition, the lack of food, the lack of heating.
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Correct. Correct. And through this they're fighting through this to help support their people.
Mehdi Hasan:
You said you were able to live amongst Palestinians. You were there for nearly 3 weeks. Obviously, you're a brown Muslim man. You're also an American citizen. What is it like being an American in Gaza knowing that you're from a country that's made all of this happen? That you're from a country where we pay tax dollars that pays for Israel to bomb these hospitals.
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Well, I think on two fronts. From their perspective, they embraced me and welcomed me regardless of my background or the country I'm from.
Mehdi Hasan:
How do you feel though being there as an American?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
It was difficult and it was a struggle, right. You know, it was very bitter knowing, for example, that I'm sitting here caring for patients whose injuries were literally caused by support from my government and my people and weapons. And it was very difficult to really understand and embrace that reality.
Mehdi Hasan:
Have you been able to speak to any? I know when you came back last time, you managed to speak to some American politicians, you did some media. Have you been able to do that this time? Is anyone still interested in Gaza in Washington DC?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Not yet. I have not. Between these two trips there is an interest but there's also a lack of real engagement, to be very honest. I think as you and many of your listeners know, there are very strong political influences and I think after two years it's hard to really break through those, even among supporters of the Palestinian struggle. There's been a Gaza fatigue. It's just human nature. And I would say especially since even since the "ceasefire" was called, there's a level of complacency — an understanding that the struggle, the conflict is over.
Mehdi Hasan:
Which is why it was so important for you to go now, post ceasefire. We appreciate you taking these risks and going out there. You got a lot of push-back last year in your LA Times op-ed when you wrote about a very striking image — you said on one occasion a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents, all had single sniper shots to the head. That was one of the first times doctors had talked about seeing that. Many other American, British, Canadian doctors supported you and said they saw the same thing. Was that still the worst single thing you've seen in Gaza?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
That in particular, that moment, was especially tragic. I mean, since then I've been exposed across my three trips to a lot of really horrific, barbaric, even demonic things. For example, like these children picking up a can of food. I almost on a daily basis was seeing children shot with shrapnel injuries. But that incident with sniper shots is very different, right? Because Israel can always say shrapnel, bombs going off, the kids weren't the targets, they're collateral damage. Sniper — that is deliberate targeting of individuals. And as you mentioned, multiple doctors, dozens, scores of doctors and teams since I've been there have witnessed the same action. So, this is really a systemic effort to target these children.
Mehdi Hasan:
I mentioned that you'd been there in 09 and we talked about 09 versus 2025. You've also volunteered in other humanitarian crises and war zones. You visited Haiti, for example, in 2010 after a devastating earthquake. You've been to multiple war zones across the Middle East and beyond. How does Gaza compare to all the other places you've been to?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Yeah, I think Gaza was probably the most difficult situation that I've ever seen. One is because this is primarily a man-made tragedy, of course. Two is, I've seen conflicts before, but I've seen opportunities where people involved in those conflicts were able to escape or leave, or where people are able to bring aid and help. And both of those are not really possible here in Gaza. As we all know, these people are literally locked into this region. And with the red zones and the yellow zones, the spaces that they have are actually even more narrow and more limited. So, it's been especially difficult to witness that we can't provide help to these people and the innocent people aren't able to really escape.
Mehdi Hasan:
In your op-ed last year, you recounted this sense of impending doom as you left Gaza. The sound of bombs and drones and machine guns were louder than when you had arrived, you said. How did you feel on your last day this time leaving Gaza?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
You know, it was very interesting. My personal reaction was very different coming back from this trip than it was the trip before in January. The first time, what resonated with me was — how should I describe it — the worst of humanity. I saw all these tragic assaults, the children being targeted, the drones. That's what resonated with me and that's what I kind of carried with me. I told my wife the first time I went was to help the people of Gaza. This time I needed to go for me, because I had felt a tremendous amount of guilt after what I saw. This time what resonated with me is what I call the best of humanity. I was really able to connect and see the resilience of the Palestinian people. I was also able to appreciate just their strength and their understanding. You know, there's a phrase in Arabic called alhamdulillah, which they use regularly, which means praise be to God. And for someone who's been oppressed, people who've literally had to bury their children and are living in these difficult circumstances, for them to utter the phrase "Praise be to God" really is a powerful statement and it gave me inspiration and that's what I've come back with.
Mehdi Hasan:
It really does fill all of us with hope in these dark times. Last question. Do you plan to go back?
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
I would love to go back. You know, one thing that many people aren't aware of is that the Israeli government is putting severe restrictions on how many doctors can go, and even then, the numbers of doctors that they're preliminarily approving — about 60 to 70% of them, from what I've seen recently — are being rejected. So, I hope to have the opportunity to go back and help.
Mehdi Hasan:
I hope you get that chance. I hope you can stay safe. Dr. Irfan Galaria, thank you for doing what you do and thank you for coming on the show today.
Dr. Irfan Galaria:
Thank you. You've been a considerable champion for the people of Palestine. You've gone through many personal and professional challenges and struggles and I pray that God gives you continued success. Thank you so much.